Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams? (and Frugality)

Subject: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 23-Mar-98-11:32 AM

If I was a retirement counsellor or financial wizard, I would offer the following advise to my clients who were worrying about how or if they could save enough to retire, if they could ever reach financial independence: I would ask them to quietly reflect on the following truths about our relationship with money:

1. Our needs are finite and relatively easily obtained.

2. Our wants are infinite.

3. No one can have it all. Everyone must choose between an infinite number of wants.

4. Learn to know what you really want and not what you have been taught to think you should want.

5. Learn to know when you have enough.

6. Know that when you go to work you are in fact exchanging non-renewable life energy for money. (Is the exchange worth it? Are you getting good value for this exchange?)

7. Know how much non-renewable life energy your next exotic vacation, impulse purchase, new car, bigger house, keeping up with the Jones, servicing your debts is going to cost you. (Is the exchange worth it? Are you getting good value for this exchange? Could you spend your life energy in better ways?)

8. Know the freedom of living within your means.

9. Know that being wealthy is more about attitude than money.

10. Count the many, many things you really value in life that cost you nothing.

11. Accept that it is far easier to reduce your expenses than it is to increase your income.

12. Most people can significantly reduce their expenses and not significantly reduce the quality of their life.

13. By reducing your expenses you have given yourself a non taxable increase in your disposable income.

14. Learn the value of time-proven household economies like reducing, reusing, repairing and doing without.

15. Keep in mind that financial independence is simply having more money coming in than going out. (If your monthly expenses are $999.00 and your monthly income is $1000.00, you are financially independent.)

16. Sound money management skills can minimize the effects of inflation.

17. Retirement dreams and goals are often metaphors for how we would like to live right now, in this present moment. So why wait? If you want to walk on far away beaches, if you want to help save the world, if you want to travel, if you want to work with children, if you want to read and reflect on the masters, if you want to cultivate your garden then simply do it. Do it today. Don't go putting off something as important to you as your dreams and life-goals until it is too late.

18. Trying to achieve your goals and dreams today will be difficult. But so what? Would you rather be spending you life energy worrying about having enough money to pursue your dreams in the uncertain future or be pursuing it now.

19. Know that putting your dreams off until tomorrow is a fantasy. Tomorrow is always a moving target, always around the corner, always waiting for that day when all your financial and other problems have been solved. Today not tomorrow is the perfect day to start living your dream.

20. Finally, know thyself and to thyself be true.

Such is my advise to those who are seriously looking at how to achieve financial independence. It is I believe a sound way for majority of Canadians to achieve their dreams. It is at least the path I have chosen.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Bylo
Date: 23-Mar-98-12:39 PM

Hear, hear! Thanks for taking the time to share.

BTW, you'd make an excellent "retirement counsellor or financial wizard"

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:John R
Date: 23-Mar-98-01:41 PM

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Howard
E-mail: mhare@interlog.com.
Date: 23-Mar-98-01:47 PM

the man is a friggin Saint. My wants are endless, my needs are infinite, and I use Disposable razors.

there are no such things as unreasonable expectations, just unreasonable time frames.

Not everyone wants to go live with Opie and Aunt bea.

good FP?? Forget about saving and making money, follow your heart etc.

Alberta Jon, you smokin' that funny lookin' weed again???

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Retired at 41
Date: 23-Mar-98-02:29 PM

Alberta-Jon:

Super comments!

A good reality check for anyone wondering if they are financially independent is to go the "The Retire Early Home Page".

In 'The Trinity Study' Scott Burns, states that the maximum safe withdrawal rate in retirement is about 4%.

This may be miserly but it, just about, ensures that you will not die pennyless.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 24-Mar-98-03:08 PM

Retired at 41

The name you have chosen for yourself. Does this say something about what you have been able to achieve? Did you retire at 41? If so how did you manage this very difficult feat? Inherit a fortune? Or...? Did you develop any strategies that might be helpful to others?

When you say "retire": what do you mean by this often loaded term? Where would I find information about Trinity Study? Thanks for commenting. Hope you don't find the above questions too personal--simply curious about such issues.

Bylo:

Thank you. Are you just being kind to the new guy on the block or do you find some true value in a frugal world view? I would be interested in your opinions about some of the implications of applying these principles. And again, thanks for the kind words. I felt a bit nervous about publishing these points of view. Thought there might be a lot more comments like Howard's.

Howard:

I am no pot smoking saint. I do not recommend and I think you know I don't recommend not to save. In fact I would wager that my wife and I probably save a greater portion of our disposable income than most because of living our frugal ways. Follow your heart: Yes. But let your heart be fully informed. The "opie and aunt bea" comment: What do you mean by that? Is it a put down because I live in the country (by choice)? Or do you mean something else? Thank you for the courtesy of replying to my reflections on frugality. I don't mind criticism, Howard, but could you please try to be more informative in your arguments so as to help me clarify my thoughts. Thanks.

To All:

I am very serious about trying to live by the values espoused in my opening thread. I do not always succeed. Are there any other people out there trying the same sorts of things? I would very much like hearing from you. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:M. St. Denis
Date: 24-Mar-98-04:09 PM

Alberta-Jon, You would be surprised at how many people are starting to "live" the very principles you so eloquently wrote about. Consumerism drives our North American society and until people realize that over the long term it is not sustainable they will continue. After all we are told on a daily basis via media that we are not happy or sucessful until we have all the toys. And as long as the majority of people buy into that philosophy it will remain the focus of many peoples lives. And that is my 2 cents. :)

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Bylo
Date: 24-Mar-98-04:18 PM

Alberta-Jon,

One reason for my positive response to your post is that it so eloquently expresses my own sentiments about financial planning and the achievement of financial independence. Speaking from first-hand experience, your common-sense principles do indeed work -- and they're certainly easier to apply and follow than most people would ever believe. Thanks again for having the "guts" to say what you said and then to respond so calmly in the face of dissent and ridicule.

I find your comments on the softer issues (e.g. wants vs. needs, tradeoff between life-energy and the almighty buck) most thought-provoking. Confession: I bought a copy of Your Money or Your Life while on a business trip last November, started reading it on the plane ride home and then managed to misplace it. I must find and finish it. Thanks for the reminder :-)

My wife and I have always considered ourselves to be frugal. Perhaps not to the same extent as you, but certainly compared to our yuppie/boomer friends and neighbours. We too have found that the "frugal way" can be just as satisfying (if not more so) than the marketing-driven proponents of our consumer society would have everyone believe. In retrospect many of the "sacrifices" we made hardly seem so today.

BTW, information about the Trinity Study as well as a lot more sensible financial planning advice is available at Scott Burns' website. Also, have a look at Retire Early and The Dollar Stretcher. Be aware that all of these sites are American -- but the general principles are of course universal.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:PK
Date: 24-Mar-98-05:02 PM

Hi Alberta-Jon:

Like others who have replied to your posting, my wife and I have also bought into a frugal lifestyle. I wanted to post a few thoughts as to how this orientation contributes to investment decisions. Below is a link to an article written by William Sharpe entitled "Financial Planning in Fantasyland".

Article

On first blush, you may think that this article is off-topic. It is essentially about the deficiences inherent in computer based financial planning software. But I think that one point of the article is directly appliciable. The article describes how most planning software demands certain inputs (income, investment return, years to retirement, years after retirement, etc.) and with this data spits out a prognosis. In the event that there is a retirement income shortfall, a warning is issued and the user is confronted with the reality that three actions can be taken:

1) Retire later

2) Spend less and save more

3) Earn a higher rate of return on investments

Since the first two options are unpleasent and the third option seems relatively painless, most people opt for the "earn a greater return" option. Afterall, even if the program tells you that risk and return go hand-in-hand, bumping your equity portion to a very high percentage suddenly makes your retirement goals achievable. Pretty painless eh? But this ignores the easiest way to get a high return on your money -- namely frugality or as I like to call it shopping carefully. When I buy a years supply of toothpaste at 1/2 price becuse its on sale, I've achieved an immeadiate 100% return on my money risk-free (its actually greater than 100% because I pay less GST and PST). While these savings may sound trivial, I make literally thousands of purchases like this each year. The savings can be enormous. To give one other example, I marvel at how people complain about bank service charges. In my situation, I maintain a minimium balance of 1K and save about $120/year in charges. To earn this amount in an interest bearing investment outside of my RRSP, I would need to return 24% on this 1K. This is impossible to achieve risk-free.

So how does this relate to investing? By living frugally I know that I can have a great lifestyle at a modest cost. This allows me to make investment decisions that factor risk into the equation and allows me to carry a far more conservative portfolio then many others would. When I make my projections, all hell would have to break loose for my retirement goals to be unobtained.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't try to get the best return possible. A comprehensive plan should incorporate all facets of financial planning. But, I think that most people ignore the number one simpliest way to secure there future -- namely living within their means.

BTW, shopping carefully has become a hobby that we have incorporated into your charitable giving strategy. Each year, my wife and I sponsor 3 families and provide them with hampers that cost us about $500/each. We figure we actually get about double the amount in provisions and our hampers usually can set-up a family for 3-6 months. In return, we get a charitable donation receipt for goods in-kind. This year, along with the satisfication of helping people, we'll be paying about $1000 less in taxes. It's a bit of a pain to keep and tally all those receipts but its worth it.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Sam P
Date: 24-Mar-98-05:09 PM

Bylo:

You have done it again.

Thanks for the links above.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:praxis
Date: 24-Mar-98-05:18 PM

Alberta-Jon:

I share your well-stated views at the top of the thread and I've read the same books. I have some questions, with reference to the Dominquez/Robin book (titled "Your Money or Your Life" for others reading this thread):

I found Dominguez's chapter on investing to be conservative in the extreme (100% US Treasury Bonds) and as you are a contibutor to this forum, I suppose you are not so inclined. Are you FI now, and if so, how conservative are your investments?

More questions to come ....

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:brian fitzpatrick
E-mail: brian.fitzpatrick@sk.sympatico
Date: 24-Mar-98-07:17 PM

BYLO AND PK I appreciate your excellent input. Would be interested in knowing what your personal portfolio 's looks like.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:FRED
Date: 24-Mar-98-11:29 PM

There is a sequel to "your money or your life" Its called "getting a life" I'm reading it now. It espouses the same philosophy.

I'm in a bit of a quandry about the "SELFISHNESS" of quiting work. Can't it be argued, the more you earn, the more you are contributing to others? ie: the world, the growth of the economy etc.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Bylo
Date: 25-Mar-98-08:59 AM

PK, re Prof. Sharpe's paper: ROTFLMAO! How true.

You may also be interested in his solution Financial Engines.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Retired at 41
Date: 25-Mar-98-12:55 PM

Alberta-Jon

I'm flattered that you're curious.

Yes, I did retire at 41, sixteen months ago, from a demanding job as a professional engineer.

My strategies were not planned, however living well within my means sure did help, together with 1) Saving 30 - 35% of my gross income, 2) Never having owned a car, 3) Sharing accommodation, 4) Being mortgage free at 35, and finally 5) Having math and computer skills that allowed me to develop a 50 year financial forecast on a spreadsheet.

The last one is 'the icing on the cake' since without it I would not have known that I was indeed FI and that I didn't need to take any more crap.

Fred

I believe it is SELFLESS to quit work IF you no longer need an employment income. Why not let someone who needs employment have the job you vacated?

As far as contibuting to society in a growing economy is concerned, you have to realize who we are and where are we going.

Mankind has been around for thousands of years, for the most part as 'hunters and gatherers'. BUT, will we be around in 1000 years? Maybe not! With a growing world ecomony our resources are being depleted, and pollution is getting to be a real problem. It's not guaranteed we will have clean water for ever more, and the incidence of asthma worldwide is becoming alarming.

Yes I am glad the economy is growing but it really is a case of 'short-term gain for long-term pain'.

I realize if we ALL adopted a simple lifestlye the ecomony would likely crash with the elimination of consumer spending on unnecessary goods and services, but we would then have a sustainable ecomony.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:PK
Date: 25-Mar-98-01:17 PM

Hi Bylo-

It took me awhile but I was finally able to locate my Captain Crunch Decoder Ring. Using this sophisticated tool, I was able to make some inroads in deciphering your post. Correct me if I'm wrong but did you mean "Rolling On The Floor Laughing, My Arrogant Opinion" and if so does this mean you're less than enamoured with Sharpe's entry into the financial planning software game? I suppose it is somewhat self-serving for him to be critical of planning programs and than come up with his own product, but free enterprise is about perceiving needs and developing products to address these needs. IMHO I think it is helpful to think about the future in more probabilistic terms, but then again there's a high probability I don't know what you meant in the first place.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Bylo
Date: 25-Mar-98-01:39 PM

Close PK, but no cigar (they're neither PC nor for frugal folks anyway)

Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off

It may be time to trade in that Captain Crunch Decoder Ring for this handy list of Internet Abbreviations :-D

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Gilles
Date: 25-Mar-98-01:40 PM

Alberta-Jon,

I'm too pragmatic for all this philosophy being thrown around.

Why don't you tell us more about your lifestyle... Do you have kids? Do you rent or own? What are your hobbies? Do you travel? How much time do you spend doing things which could be done by someone else if you paid for it?

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Gilles Maurice
E-mail: gmaurice@magi.com
Date: 25-Mar-98-01:49 PM

Ooops, I posted the same question in the 'retire well' thread. Oh well...

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 25-Mar-98-03:23 PM

Gilles:

Fair enough. My wife and I are in our late 40''. We have two children, one of whom has flown the coop and one son 14 years of age still at home. My wife and I have worked at many jobs: library, factory, bus driving, environmental officer, teacher, principal, tourist guide and a few others as well.

Over the years my wife and I have lived frugally. Because we have lived frugally, we have at various times over the last 27 years taken one or more years off work for travel, study and enjoying the kids.

At this time both my wife and I are working. We have a combined family net income of about $65 000.00. We own a modest house on about 3 acres of land in southern Alberta. We have no debts of any kind. It costs us about $15-$17 000.00 per year to live fabulously. The difference between our net income and net expenses is invested. This investment is divided between equities, bonds and money: Approximately 50/40/10 per cent. We soon will have accumulated enough money to live independently of work if we wish to do so.

What do we do for pleasure? We have always loved the outdoors which is why we moved here about 10 years ago. We camp in all seasons. Fly fishing. My son and I spend many hours hiking, skiing, snow shoeing and canoeing. We all go to movies on discount times and days. We love to entertain in our home. We seldom eat out in restaurants preferring our own cooking. We are all avid readers and use the library frequently. My wife and I find a long walk on country lanes is an absolutely wonderful treat and do it nearly every day. I like making wine and beer. We both like working with wood and cloth and do this when possible. It is rare for us to watch television, but we do have one. We have travelled widely over they years. It is not a burning desire at this time. We are more than content with our little corner of the world.

We want for nothing. Our life is full. I wouldn't live any other way. I hope this answers your questions.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 25-Mar-98-04:08 PM

To All:

Thank you so much for your thoughtful contributions to this thread. I am indebted to all of you. I need some time now to read and ponder what you have kindly written then I am going to be bombarding you with further questions and comments.

Sometime when one pursues a lifestyle choice like frugality you imagine you are alone in doing this; it is nice to see that this is not the case.

I will be back. I have to take a small group of children on a field trip to Drumheller and Dinosaur Provincial Park. Love those dinosaurs!! Should be back in few days bursting with questions about F1 and frugality not dinosaurs.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:TIM
Date: 25-Mar-98-04:37 PM

Alberta-Jon- truly appreciate the philosophy but cant help but notice the government employment in your lifestyle. We, in the real world work hard and play hard as we dont have the government or unions to help us achieve our lifestyle. Yes, its true that we do collect toys but eventually some of us realize that there is more to life as so eloquently stated by yourself. Appreciate your comments as Ive been pondering retirement NOW at 49 as I have all the toys. Thks again

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:JumpingJack
Date: 25-Mar-98-05:45 PM

Tim

don't be too hasty jumping to conclusions about who really works in the real world. Government or private enterprise. I have worked for both employers and can say confidently that I have seen slackers in both places and have seen hard working, caring workers in both places. So don't be too damn smug and too quick in putting down Alberta-Jon. I know plenty of government workers and private enterprise workers who are no where near his finacial health. He got where he is today because of how he lived his life not how who he worked for. It seems obvious to me at least. I don't get the feeling he wants the toys you are so pleased about. Just my thoughts. It's just too easy to dump on government workers. Alberta-Jon ignore the cheap shots. You doing a good job with your life.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:AnObserver
Date: 25-Mar-98-07:09 PM

Alberta-Jon

Keep up the good work. You are definitely on the right track. It sounds to me like you really have your life together. I agree with Jumping Jack as well. It doesn't matter where he has worked. It is how he has managed his money, not how he made it. I don't buy this notion, very common around here that those of us who work for private industry are better, superior, more worldly, tougher, less well protected than public servants. BS! Maybe your observations had some merit in 50's and 60's but not in these leaner times. One of my close friends is a teacher and she is one of the hardest working persons I know. So to Tim, I would suggest get off your high horses. Alberta-Jon is also part of the world. And I for one am glad that he is.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Fred
Date: 25-Mar-98-11:38 PM

retired at 41: I can't buy the idea of quiting work to allow the job to go to someone else. As we gain experience in life we grow, and share our expertise with others and this provides more job opportunities for people. I own a small business and employ 4. If I worked harder I could employ more. I'm 45 and like Tim, am pondering the idea of if and when to quit. But then what do you become???? A lazy, slothful, self proclaimed "expert" or what?

I don't mean to be critical, I'm just considering all angles on this

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:TIM
Date: 26-Mar-98-09:14 AM

Fred, after reviewing this thread, I did stop and analyze whether I could financially retire at this point in time. Its doable but I cant imagine becoming slothful, lazy etc as there are just too many things left to do before the big day. My point on government work raised the hackles but who owns a business has ever taken two months off or has had the opportunity to travel with a guaranteed job upon their return????? Quite frankly, I'm a little jealous as Ive never had the paid opportunity to contemplate my navel for months or years at a time.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Howard
Date: 26-Mar-98-09:55 AM

Once agian, retirement is doing what you want to do because you want to, not because you have to.

If going to the office 7 days a week is what you really enjoy, you are retired.

I have always felt sorry for people who live each day just waiting to quit what they are doing..

Life is too short, don't wait, make the change now.

I have been qoute retired for two years, sort of.

I have more than enough money to live very comfortably, but I have decided to reenter the work force.

turn around situation, which I love doing, and a dozen people may just keep their jobs.

hacksaw Howard???

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:TIM
Date: 26-Mar-98-11:49 AM

Howard, Is that a puplic company that ur going to be working on??

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Howard
Date: 26-Mar-98-02:17 PM

Yes, but i am not at liberty to reveal any details. US based.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 26-Mar-98-07:59 PM

Tim,

Little time to debate at this time, but I do have a few minutes. For what it is worth, I have been part of the work force now for about 26 years. During those 26 years I have been employed in government jobs for about six to seven years. The rest of the time I have been employed and self employed. I think you read teacher and administration and leaped to the conclusion that I was employed by the government and had union support. Not so. For most of my teaching career I have worked for private, non union Christian schools. For the last two and half years, I have been working at various schools on a contractual basis as well as operating a private tutoring service.

I mentioned that I have taken a fair bit of time off over the years and this is true. But I had no guarantee of a job. What usually happend was that my wife and I would work sometimes more than one job each. When we had put enough money together we would drop out of the work force and pursue study, travel and other issues of concern to us. When we wished to return to work we had to hustle to get a position. Usually we managed to do this. But I must make it clear that we never left any where with a guaranteed job. Never. Often the first jobs I got were not in teaching but in factories or driving or whatever was needed. We simply valued other things in life other than getting ahead on the job.

When we moved to southern Alberta. We moved without any guarantee of a job simply a strong wish to live there. It was hard at time but we eventually were both employed. I hope this makes my work career a bit clearer.

And again I will repeat: We always made our own way. We never once went on public assistance, etc.

Regarding retirement. Very quickly. I don't know when and if I will retire. I mentioned above that we will soon be financially independent. This is true. When this point is reached, my wife and I might retire, we might become missionaries, we/I might return to school and pursue advanced studies, I might continue to work if it suits me. Financial independence does not mean retirement to me and it certainly does not mean laziness and sloth. For God sake people there is so much work to do that is of value. During those time I chose not to work for money I certainly was not being lazy, I pursued numerous pursuits that engaged me completely. So please don't let yourself fall into the trap that not working for money is somehow slothful and useless. This is not true. I appreciate your comments, Tim.

Howard, I agree with you. Continue to work. Continue to do what brings you joy.

Must go now. I as sneaking a few moments away from more pressing duties.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 30-Mar-98-07:39 PM

Ah...back from the time of dinosaurs. And now if anyone is still out there, I have some questions:

M. St Denis.

Interesting name. Your comments are worth considerably more than two cents. Although I didn't elaborate overly much on what launched my wife and I on the road to frugality certainly concern for the environment and the inheritently unsustainable nature of the consumer lifestyle was a big part of why we adopted frugality as a lifestyle choice. Thanks for responding.

Bylo,

I really appreciate the kind comments and even more so the other forums you higlighted. They were excellent places. I will return to them on many occasions. You seem to be involved in the financial world in some capacity or another. What kind of position do you occupy? Do you give financial investment advise? If these questions are too personal then please ignore them. I'm still not too sure what is permissable and not permissable to ask. You are quite perceptive in noting my indebtedness to the authors of Your Money Or Your Life. Their book helped me learn how to better articulate my lived truths about frugality and valuing our most precious commodity: time. Again thanks for your input. Much appreciated.

PK

I couldn't agree more about what you say re: how many people seem to avoid the most obvious and some ways easiest way to have more disposable income: spend less. Live within you means. Good article, too. My wife and I also see shopping for the best possible price to be something of a quest of good hobby. Lots of fun. Now for a dumb question. I often see the initials: BTW. What does it mean? Thanks for replying.

praxis,

I too find Joe's investment advise too conservative. I think you probably know from reading later entries that I'm not FI. (financially independent). I think I have what would be considered a fairly "normal" portfolio of equities, bonds and money. I too would be interested in hearing from other frugal folks who are investors. What kinds of strategies do they use? I must admit I admired Joe's ability to live within the means provided by his simple and conservative investments. By the way, if you don't know so already: Joe sadly passed away this January after a courageous battle with cancer. His funeral attracted thousands of people to Seattle his home town. Thanks for commenting.

Tim,

Why is it that we think some people live in the "real world" and others like myself don't live in this world? I gather from what you have written that you are self employed. This is good. I too have been at times self employed. This did not confer on me any superior moral position or allowed me to occupy a really-real world. I note that you seem to be proud of the toys you have purchased. Good for you. While you purchased toys with your life energy(money) I bought time: Time to pursue those things which I value. Toys, stuff, material goods have never held a big fascination with me. Maybe by luck or by some design, I have been blessed with simple desires, which are easy to fulfill. I certainly don't plan on telling you or anyone else how to live their life, but I can't help but notice that many people find their lives crowded with stuff, barely paid for, that they have little or no use for and that seems to require a great deal of time and money to maintain.

Finally, Tim I would like to say to you that if you are in fact 49 years of age and you have not found the time yet to "contemplate your navel, which I presume you mean you have not had the time to think, reflect, ask questions about your life, about where you have been and where you are going, then you are loosing big time at the game of life. I strongly suggest that you STOP what you are doing and give yourself that time. Life is far too short and precious to waste solely or mainly in making a living. The number of people who loose their life working too hard to make a living is:legion. As to your belief that retirement and being lazy and slothful are one, I am afraid this is yet another reason why you should give yourself the time to reflect on the important things in life. There are countless things an individual can do that are meaningful and useful, but which pay no money. It is a bit of cliche, but true nevertheless that no one on their death bed wishes they had worked more days, or that they had worked harder and longer. Most people wish they would have given themself the chance to be them self, to explore, to love, to play, to fully be alive. Thanks for the comments and criticisms, Tim I appreciate and I truly do hope you find time to "smell the roses or coffee". You deserve it.

Retired At 41.

Thanks for information.

Fred,

I read the same book over Christmas. What is selfish about wishing to leave the work force? Can't you serve society in ways beyond counting after you have left the work force? Who says that fully experiencing a sunset, or mending a relationship, or gardening or....are not real work? Why listen to those who are so narrow minded that they know only one way to be useful. Be liberated. Take a chance. Meet your needs to self actualize and chances are you will do more good for this sorry old world than you ever could do in countless meaningless jobs.

Thanks to everyone else for replying. I hope this discussion is not over. But we will see. Although it may not always be welcome I intend to participate in a lot of the debates going on in this forum. Goodnight. God bless.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:PK
Date: 30-Mar-98-08:26 PM

BTW=By the way

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Fred
E-mail: the devils advocate
Date: 30-Mar-98-11:56 PM

When in university, I spent a lot of time in the library, while others were the drunken partiers. I've always worked hard and lots to show for it, a family, a business, good investments.

I now make great money, I could retire(in 40's)with a good income from conservative investments. But I like money. 3 weeks in maui in January. returned last night from skiing in the rockies. next weekend quiet time planned at my country home with the family. Love my fitness club. I run at least one marathon each year.

I spoil my 4 employees, and like it.

Damn it we only live once. Be all you can be. Go for the gusto. Die with your boots on!!

The siren song of "retirement" and frugality is a cop-out. The lord gave you a mind and two hands, use them! contribute! AND smell the roses/coffee too.

Life energy is ENHANCED by doing the best you can and enjoying the fruits of your labor.

If you dont like your job. Quit and do something that makes you feel good about yourself. Your income reflects your contribution. Sure, you can work for free, do that too, I do. we all need to do volunteer work to make our communities good places to live.

Making money, AND spending it helps those starting out, it gives them jobs, and INCOME.

Watch that sunset, then get off your rocking chair and get back to work!!

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Bylo
Date: 31-Mar-98-07:15 AM

Alberta-Jon

"I really appreciate ... I will return to them on many occasions."
My pleasure. I've learned much from you and from many others on this forum as well. Thank you to everyone. Including Howard.

"What kind of position do you occupy?"
Sitting. I also have a small software company.

"Do you give financial investment advise?"
Only on FundLib.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Dave N
Date: 31-Mar-98-11:12 AM

Fred,

I am glad that you are happy and that you are "living life to the fullest". It sounds like you are hard working and generous. I would say that most people do not reach their potential and contribute little to others.

But I must challenge you to look at the bigger picture. If you look at things historically, you are living the life of kings with a thousand slaves. If you look globally, you are living a life that less than 1% of the population could ever hope to achieve. If you look ecologically, you are using up more resources than the population a small town would have used 100 years ago. Of course I am not just talking about you but of most people in western or "advanced" civilation.

Most are ignorent of the costs we put on others and on the earth for our lifestyles. Exploitation of workers and child labor are used to produce many of the goods we use. The majority of people on earth are living in poverty and barely have enough to eat. The things that we do consume are rarely used or used up and end up in huge landfill sites. We are spinning our wheels in the name of 'progress' and 'growth'.

What are our rights for using all these resources? I don't mean our right to employment, to earn a living or our legal rights or even our rights as a nation to provide for its citizens. I mean the rights and responsibilities we have as residents of the earth. For most "Ignorence is truely bliss."

We do not need recycling programs if we are to live sustainibly, we need a new type of civilation. One that I think will emerge in the decades ahead. One that Alberta-Jon and others are only hinting at on this thread. Declining GDP's will be the goal. Real personal responsibility, awareness and development will be the highest achievements, instead of this me, mine consumerism chaos. People will actually be fulfilled with the things that give real happiness. Valuing yourself and others and the pursut of a higher sense of development. Giving and sharing and enjoying the presence of others and the natural world.

Dave N

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 31-Mar-98-11:59 AM

Dave N

Very nice to hear from you. I think what you have written here is very important and needs to be stated. I agree with your implied criticism that I have not really begun to look at the large macro economic and cilivilization issues related to individual frugality. I simply live my life in such a way that brings me and mine a sense of joy and fulfillment. Do you think this radical conscious changing you write of wil take place slowly, person by person or will it happen because of some castaprophic breakdown in the environment or economy? If the latter I wonder wouldn't many try to get more of what little was left and damn their neighbors--like we now do to our third world neighbors. Thereby maintaining the present economic order but on a more reduced scale. If it is the former, that is through individual like myself and others changing their attitudes towards money and consumption then we will indeed be waiting a long time for this new world you speak so eloquently about. Thanks for the very informative comments. And now I would start ducking because your comments are bound to attract much criticism and ridicule from many on this forum.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:newcomer
Date: 31-Mar-98-12:49 PM

To All of You:

What a find I made stumbling upon these threads.

Are there any other financial discussion forums anything like this, elsewhere on the net?

As a rookie to the net and to the financial world I do not even know what questions to ask so that all of your bantering is very helpful and entertaining.

thank you

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:gummy
Date: 31-Mar-98-01:18 PM

I've looked (and looked) and have found some other discussion forums, but none so lively, varied and active as this.
(I often wake up at 4 am and think, what, if anything, can I contribute today?)

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Howard
Date: 31-Mar-98-03:18 PM

Gummy, how about contributing a $100K to my favourite charity? Me. i wake up thinking, how can I maximize the return on my money and p%6ss a few people off in the process.

I blame Alberta jon boy, until goober and gomer came along, this was stimulating.

Now I feel like I am in church with everybody preaching and smiling those stupid. sippy smiles you see at service, not that i go anymore.

Gummy, go back to sleep. pfizer, $100 or not today, that is the question????

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 31-Mar-98-04:24 PM

Howard,

I can tell it has been a long time since you visited your local church. But you are always welcome to attend my church. I will warn everyone to avoid looking too happy. Absolutely no smiling. No preaching. Promise. And afterwards old sinners that we are we will go share a few pints of homemade brew together. Toast all the other sinners and hypocrites in the world.

Funny thing, Howard, you know where you most often see preaching, pasted on smiles, everyone pretending to be the best of buddies? It is often salesmen, saleswomen and other merchants who are intent on selling you what you don't want.

Have a good day and may your beloved Pfizer finally break $100, then you will sell it and we won't constantly hear about it. See you in church, you old sinner.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Gumby
Date: 31-Mar-98-04:44 PM

Okay ... everybody who really, really LOVES Howard say aye.

Let me be the first

AYE!

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:gummy
Date: 31-Mar-98-04:49 PM

Oh my ... that'll make poor Howard feel terrible.

P.S. Howy: name your favourite charity. Then, when my (favourite) stock explodes upon the scene ...

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Gomer
Date: 01-Apr-98-12:39 AM

we need an economy that thrives equally on contraction as well as expansion.

with technology working for us we must work towards a sustainable ecosystem. I don't think that the world population today is sustainable.

how do we get an economy that thrives on contraction??????

any ideas?

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Another FI
Date: 01-Apr-98-02:33 AM

Alberta-Jon,

Having lived and visited different countries, I know, we Canadians are lucky enough to have so much may be a little too much.

The basic thing to be happy is not what you have, but what you are. You can be a good son, good brother, good father, good friend, and so on. Does not cost anything!

There are so many valuable things, people, places around you (without a price tag). To appreciate them and tell them you appreciate is FREE!

I work for the companies or people, I really like. And I could pay my bills with that.

When I need more work, I can always remember Psalm.23:1 The LORD is my shepherd. ...

Have a nice day!

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Goober
Date: 01-Apr-98-07:14 AM

Ah don't luuuuv Howard,but ah laaahk 'im.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Dave N
Date: 01-Apr-98-10:06 AM

Alberta-Jon,

I think a new type of consciousness is developing in the world. People are becoming more aware of others and have access to information. Communism and dictatorships are on the decline. Governments are becoming more transparent. Consider recent developments. Who would have thought a decade ago about ..... The fall of the Soviet Union, the fall of East Germany and the Berlin Wall, the beginning of the end of Apartheid in South Africa, Peace talks in Northern Ireland and the Middle East, a movement toward capitalism in China and Cuba that I suspect will lead to more democratic systems, the democratization of many governments in South America and the Far East, the development of the internet as an unregulated grass roots global communications system, and a widespread realisation of the earth as a finite system. All these developments are both individualistic and societal. I think that these are the beginnings of a movement of a heightened awareness that will eventually lead to a new type of global society.

But I do think that there will be a catastrophic event or events that will trigger a change. These could include one or more of the following ......the break out of a war probably with the use of nuclear or biological weapons, a crash in the stock markets triggering hyper deflation or vice versa, a global depression, a sudden global ecological disaster affecting all life. So things could get a lot worse before they get better. And yes there will be hoarding and atrocities, but there will also be an undeniable consciousness that we are all one community and are fully dependant on each other. We will switch from a species that has been evolved to focus on short term physical threats in our environment into one that is more cerebral and aware of the interdependency of life. This will automatically lead to a new type of 'frugal' living.

Dave N

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Howard
Date: 01-Apr-98-10:16 AM

Nah, these little green guys will come down with cookbooks.

"How to fricasse Humans"

Alberta jon, best sales people are those Sunday Morning preachers on TV.

Send your money for our new golden Dome, God loves You.

boy they are slick.

Gummy, toronto Sick Childrens Hospital or Mc Master University.

Alberta Jon, it broke $100, but there is nothing I would sell it for to buy???

Believe in Christianity, just do not believe in organised religion.

Churches are biggest Tax dodgers in society, but they have the nerve to tell me what to do with my money.

What a Crock.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:wag
Date: 01-Apr-98-10:30 AM

every day people are straying away from the church and going back to god - lenny bruce

to you im an atheist--to god im the loyal opposition - woody allen

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 01-Apr-98-11:05 AM

Fred,

I reread your contribution this morning. I have a few comments. First, I am a bit perplexed. You argue for enjoying your time. I do. You seem to value work. I do too. You seem to believe that it is of value to help others in your community. So do I. You are a businessman and in a way I think we are all business people. We all have to manage our own household economy. I believe that we must get full value for every dollar we spend. I believe that I should know how much money is coming in and how much is going out. I believe in operating my household business in such a way that I show a healthy surplus. I too believe in spoiling the employees--wife, children--of my business. I believe that frugal values enhances the bottom line of my business. Do you really argue for running your business by opposite standards? Spend, spend, spend? If so Fred you are a poor excuse for a businessman. I think where we might part company is argue that money is the only measure of success. On that point I do disagree.

To Others,

Feel free to follow God wherever you find Him. He will be there waiting for you. God bless.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 01-Apr-98-11:34 AM

Howard,

You have fallen into a common error. Christians don't believe in "organized religion". They believe in God and His human face Jesus the Christ. Christians don't believe in the church. They don't believe in the minister or priest. They don't believe in the Sunday morning tv evangelist. They only believe in God as revealed by Jesus Christ.

Of course, there are all sorts of crooks and bad guys in any organization. So what? The church is a human organization and that by definition means it is not perfect. Wow what a big revalation. The same could be said of any other organization you care to name. As to the tax dodging issue: It could be, has been argued by many that it is the very rich and corporations that get the big tax breaks. I don't know for sure. Just throw it out as food for thought. Final point, I personally think that to the extent a given church helps others in the greater community to that extent it should receive tax breaks. I don't think it is helpful for any church to get an automatic tax break. But when it is taken away I sure hope we start looking at all the other "tax dodgers" as well.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 01-Apr-98-03:53 PM

Gomer,

Ever read anything by Edward Abbey especially on industrialism, sustainable ecomomies and eco thinking in general? I believe he has some interesting things to say about living and thriving in a "contracting" economy. Beyond that, I think it is very much up to each of us to learn how to "thrive", no matter what kind of global economy we live in. Each of us I believe is responsible for how happy we feel. I think if you are seriously posing a question, it would be better to expand on it. Otherwise left kind of guessing what is your point. Thanks for replying.

Another F1

Sounds to me like you really have your life together. Congratulations. Would you mind elaborating a bit more on how you financially sustain your chosen lifestyle: jobs? investments? combinations? Do you follow Dominguez's investment advice? Thanks for your thoughts and I imagine you are not alone in getting comfort and guidance from that Psalm.

Dave N,

You may be right. I'm not too sure about end of world order talks. I try my best to make my way within the present economic order: whether it is on its last leg or not. I wonder who your teachers are? I think I might enjoy reading some of them. Thanks for your insightful point of view. Very thought provoking.

wag,

I believe God is not found solely or mainly in church. I think God is found in His world. I believe too many people try to place limits on God. He cannot by prescribed, defined and placed nicely in a creed which one parrots off without thought each Sunday. It is no wonder that many people rightly seek God beyond the walls of the church. Thanks for the sharing those quotes. Good stuff.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Mason
Date: 01-Apr-98-10:59 PM

Howard, you often sound like the ultimate cynic, and I hate cynicism. But I must admit, I find myself agreeing with a FEW of your opinions.

Alberta Jon,

Thanks for making this one of the most interesting threads I've read in a long while. It's uncanny how many ideas and lifestyle choices we appear to share. I too, am in my mid-forties, and my wife and I are rapidly approaching the time when we will be financially independent.

I have always been amazed at how someone making 40, 50, or $60,000 a year manages to "never have enough money". My wife and I are raising 3 kids on $60,000 a year, have no debts, no mortgage, and save about a quarter of our income. We're never deprived and live like kings! It's so simple anyone can do it, but it requires a small adjustment in thinking which it seems too few are willing to make.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Ron
Date: 02-Apr-98-12:21 AM

what a great thread!

I like the philosophy, fugality, finding joy in simple pleasures,

taking time off, drifting from job to job

living in the country, drinking HOME BREW with friends and family.....banjo plunking in the background......

........wait a minute Jon, R U a HILLBILLY?

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Howard
Date: 02-Apr-98-09:28 AM

Goober, Gomer, Opie, and Aunt Bea. Alberta Jon, I have lived in the country on several small farms.

one day my new bride came to me and said

Either we move back to the city, or I'm moving back to the city, I am tired of talking to cows.

many people can live well on 60K, but not in a major city.

many people in small towns can become Mortgage free, but not if your home costs 450k plus. You make your choices, and i am definitely a City Boy. I would live in Kensington in london, england if i could afford to.

or maybe Park ave in new york.

Rather watch the Jays or the Yankees than some small town bush league.

Large cities are also much friendlier than small towns, despite waht people brag.

small towns are very unfriendly, youare always the new comer, the outsider. newfs call newcomers CFA, labelled.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Another FI
Date: 02-Apr-98-01:52 PM

Another FI

Sounds to me like you really have your life together. Congratulations. Would you mind elaborating a bit more on how you financially sustain your chosen lifestyle: jobs? investments? combinations? Do you follow Dominguez's investment advice? Thanks for your thoughts and I imagine you are not alone in getting comfort and guidance from that Psalm.

Alberta-Jon,

1. No debts, no mortgage

2. Almost raised children

3. We (in 40's) always maximise our RSP: mix of equities (Canadian,US, Intern.), bonds, m-market; In equities since early eighties.

4. Started a 4 for 1 leverage account ($4 of other people's money for $1 of ours') with interest only payment (interest paid is tax deductible) with mostly US equity M-Funds. Interest costs: Prime + 1%

5. We need around 30k net to pay bills (University, Interest on Leverage Loan, Vacations, etc.)

6. We are looking for about 9 to 11% annual growth in medium / long term

7. To sustain our lifestyle, only good jobs or contracts (thank the LORD) + withdrawals from Non-RSP

8. In case of real need, we plan to make SWP (systematic withdrawal plan) from our Leverage account to service the interest charges.

9. Not yet read Dominguez's Book. Borrowed from local Library and just started it today.

Have a nice day!

Another FI

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 02-Apr-98-02:51 PM

Hi Ron,

If you define Hillbilly as someone who is a christian, lives in the country, enjoys making his own beer and wine, loves spending time with family and friends, grows some of his food and practices the frugal arts then I guess I stand convicted. I am by that definition at least a Hillbilly.

Sorry I really enjoy music but never did learn how to play the banjo.

Your use of the word "drifting", I wonder if that particular word was chosen to imply that my time off from paid employment was without purpose. If so I think you are mistaken. My time away from paid employment was carefully planned for months and years in advance. The time away from paid employment was used to achieve other more important goals to me than simply accumulating more money. If I am reading too much into your choice: sorry.

Howard,

Your choice of city life over country life is a lifestyle choice. I know of many people who both live in the city and who practice frugality and a philosophy that tries to simplify their life. Someday you might wish to read Living Without A Salary. The author makes a clear argument that it is in many ways easier to live a frugal life in the city than in the country. As to where you find more friendly people, I think it depends on whether you are friendly. I have lived more years in the city than in the country. I found both places had much to offer in terms of friendship and good times. I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said most folks are about as happy they choose to be. And this is true no matter where you live.

Another FI and Mason,

Time is pressing right now, but I hope to reply in a few hours. FI I know you will really enjoy Dominguez's book. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on it after you complete it.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 02-Apr-98-03:45 PM

Mason,

Right on the mark. It is attitude not the size of our salary that determines whether we can live a rich life and still have money left over to among other things invest. I know several couples who are making in excess of $100 000.00 per year, who live in the country and are up to their neck in debt. Why? They have convinced themself that they could not possibly be happy if they couldn't get the latest model car or better microwave or--we all know and could easily add to this list. They, of course, are often heard complaining about how hard it is to make ends meet. Like many they look for someone or something to blame: government--muncipal, provincial, federal--inflation, taxation, welfare bums and we all know and could easily add to this list, couldn't we?

I find it very sad that so few people take the time to examine their needs and wants, that so few people learn to know the fundamental difference between these two catagories. If ever large numbers of people do take the time to separate needs from wants, the net wealth-attitude of this country will take a sea change. There are so many truly wealthy people in this county who live as if they were poor. Always worried about making and keeping their money. Never having enough money to feel secure. Worried that if the money supply from their business or place of work dried up tomorrow that they would find themself on the street. Such sad nonsense.

We should all learn to live within our means like you, Mason, and this should happen whether we live in the country or the city. Bravo on your right attitude to money, you and yours will surely prosper.

PS Are there any individuals reading this that live in the city and are attempting to practice frugality, simplifying, cutting back? Urban frugal success stories? It would be fun to hear from you and about your strategies. I ask this because I am beginning to see that some might try to make the frugal movement a country vs city thing. Not true, I think, at least.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Howard
Date: 02-Apr-98-05:05 PM

Alberta Jon Boy, do you know waht happens when you play a Country and western song BACKWARDS??

You get your house back, your job back, your dog back, your truck back, your wife back, your girl friend back.... I've been poor and I've been rich. and rich is much better.

The only thing money can't buy is Poverty.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Marcel Valentin
E-mail: valentin@physics.utoronto.ca
Date: 02-Apr-98-05:35 PM

Alberta-Jon... I am an Urban Frugal individual. Like you have stated in your posts, people do not know what their needs are. 90% of my frugalness can be atrributed to the fact that I choose not to own a car. No monthly payments, insurance, gas, parking fees, parking tickets etc for me. Most of the time I cycle, or on the snowy days, take public transport. Whenever I truly need a car (once or twice a month), I rent one for $30 per day and my credit card covers the insurance. A few months back, CAA had an article that stated that it costs the average Canadian car owner almost $8000 per year to operate a car (based on Cavalier ownership and costs include depreciation, gas & maintenance). That works out to $666/month (hmmm I'm beginning to see the connection) for car ownership. Through my lifestyle, my auto costs average less than $100/month.

Do I get to pick a prize now? I'll take the furry thing on the 3rd shelf.....

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Retired at 41
Date: 02-Apr-98-06:21 PM

Urban Frugal Success Story #330.

I live in Burnaby (right beside Vancouver) on 850/month, and as I stated earlier I have never owned a car.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Michael
E-mail: mscoyne@wave.home.com
Date: 02-Apr-98-06:57 PM

Alberta Jon, enough of the missionary zeal. Show us the stuff - "How to prosper in Drumheller on $40 bucks a day"? Be wary, the overwrought city slickers may beat a path to your oasis! We can all learn much from "A Frugal Budget". Kindly print the model (or yours) for review and discussion. Many urbanites (like I ) may be converted on facts but never on faith. The cost of public transit alone in major metropolitan areas in Canada for a family of three (like yours) is at least $6 bucks a day. No doubt budgeting is a significant planning precept on the road to financial independence and requires more discourse in this Forum. But this doubting Thomas (humbly) deserves but demands the evidence not the zeal.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 02-Apr-98-08:11 PM

Another FI and perhaps others:

Something I am starting to think a lot more of lately is the connection between financial independence and investment/withdrawl strategies.

Is financial independence and hoping for a given return on an investment contradictory thinking? How can we be financially independent if we are clearly dependent on the market performing well? If the market went "south" and stayed there for a number of years--certainly possible--would we still be financially independent?

Is one financially independent if forced to constantly monitor and worry about his/her investment portfolio? What is the best portfolio for a person who knows to the penny what they need to meet their needs? Is a very conservative portfolio the best one for a truly frugal person.

My portfolio is not conservative. I am invested mainly in equities, bonds and money. Dare I say it, but this money is directly in the market and not in funds. It has done good by me. Took a bit of hit at end of October, but have more than made up this lost ground. In some ways I can afford to take more risks than many because I know it doesn't take much money to meet my needs.

Still...

I know, I don't need the ridiculous sums of money many of the fund companies sales force seem to argue one needs to achieve financial independence. But how much money do frugal people need to invest at what rate in order to be financially independent?

This is something I am still working on. I believe it was Retired at 41 who wrote that if one withdrew 4% of your capital each year that your money would last nearly forever. What about 5%? What about 5% one year and 3% another? As you can see I still have much to work out in terms of investments, withdrawls, independence, and so on. But that is certainly part of the reason I am haunting this forum.

Marcel,

I mentioned to Howard that the author of Surviving Without A Salary wrote that it is just as easy to live frugally in the city as it is in the country. One of his arguments was that city people can give up their car and rely upon foot, public transit and bikes a lot easier than country people who have often to go long distances between places. Of course only a few are wise enough to see this and even fewer are courageous enough to act on this knowledge. Thanks for your contribution to this ongoing thread on the pursuit and joy of frugal living.

Howard, Again,

You are a funny man. Good sense of humour. But you are wrong when you write that the only thing money can't buy is poverty. I know from reading other threads that you are a family man who loves his wife and children. I know you would never put a price on this relationship. I know you know that money can buy a lot of things but it cannot buy the joys a family brings a man. I hope you know that I am not urging anyone to adopt poverty. Poverty hurts! Frugal folks are not impoverished. Frugal folks are wealthy beyond measure. See you later sinner.

Retired At 41

Living on $850.00 per month in Burnaby. Wow! I sure hope you share how this is possible.

Question:

What is the relationship between financial independence and investments in an uncertain world?

Where should a frugal investor intent on being financially independent put his/her hard saved money?

How does one manage the relationship between investing and withdrawing annual amounts of money

I personally have a portfolio made up of equities, bonds and money. I too hope that I will continue to get good returns.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Al
Date: 02-Apr-98-09:17 PM

Question to Alberta Jon and to Howard: what do financial independence and early retirement have to do with happiness?

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Mason
Date: 02-Apr-98-09:20 PM

Howard,

You're right that poverty is not particularly enobling, but neither is working twice as hard to spend twice as much while worrying twice as much.

Me, I'll be happy to spend half as much while working half as long with half the worry.

We've all heard it many times, but few seem to believe:

"The more you have, the more you worry."

Retiring at age 50 is easy, if you are willing to put 5 simple ideas into practice.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Mason
Date: 02-Apr-98-09:24 PM

Howard,

You're right that poverty is not particularly enobling, but neither is working twice as hard to spend twice as much while worrying twice as much.

Me, I'll be happy to spend half as much while working half as long with half the worry.

We've all heard it many times, but few seem to believe:

"The more you have, the more you worry."

Retiring at age 50 is easy, if you are willing to put 5 simple ideas into practice.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Mason
Date: 02-Apr-98-09:25 PM

Howard,

You're right that poverty is not particularly enobling, but neither is working twice as hard to spend twice as much while worrying twice as much.

Me, I'll be happy to spend half as much while working half as long with half the worry.

We've all heard it many times, but few seem to believe:

"The more you have, the more you worry."

Retiring at age 50 is easy, if you are willing to put 5 simple ideas into practice.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Dave N
Date: 03-Apr-98-09:53 AM

Al,

Financial independence has a lot to do with happiness, although I'm not sure retirement does. Financial independence simply means never having to compromise yourself or your values. If you are dependant on a job and an income from that job, even if you love what you are doing, you are compromised. If your company does anything that is not in line with your values are you able to quit? Can you tell your boss that you do not believe in this product so you will not work on it, or do not like the bureaucracy so you are going to do things your own way, or don't believe in working with a coworker because they are not being fair or doing their share, or don't believe that the company is socially responsible, or environmentally responsible, or is trying to convince consumers to purchase a product or service that they don't really need, or feel that you have to dress up to the 'standard' at work even though you are more comfortable and feel like yourself in jeans, or you would just like to go home at noon today because you have a headache and don't believe in taking drugs, or you just want to spend some more time with your spouse, or teach your kids about whales, or don't believe in sitting in rush hour for an hour burning fuel, or want to start on that novel you've wanted to write for years, or think you can just get more work done from home, or do you feel pressured that you have to go out to the restaurant on your lunch hour to celebrate that coworkers birthday that you do not really like (even though you brought your lunch today), or your not really sure what you want to do with your life but you know it's not this or ........

The point is if you are dependant, you are not independent. On the other hand I think retirement has gotten a bad reputation. Just because you are financially independent or retired does not mean that you should stop working. This is a big mistake for most people and is likely the reason of why a high proportion of people feel depressed and loose their sense of worth in retirement. On the contrary, you can work at whatever you've ever dreamed of, what is important to you and what you believe in. In this case your sense of worth will likely go through the ceiling, because you will be replacing that kind of false sense of worth you had doing a job you did not really believe in with something real. And you will be doing work on your terms. Since you don't need the money, you can work for free (volunteer) if you like, or tell the boss you have a better way of doing things, or be your own boss, or give everyone the afternoon off, or be compasionate if that is what you believe in, or be as opinionated as you like (in the case of Howard ;). In short you can live life totally in line with your values. This would actually put you under a different kind of stress. No longer a conformist but a liberator.

Dave N

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 03-Apr-98-10:10 AM

To All Contributors;

I'm sorry for that print snafu yesterday. I wrote it and was going to return to it and edit out some material. Got busy. Forgot. Sent ideas out. Sorry.

Good morning, Michael,

Stop preaching and expose my budget to your critical eyes. Over the years, I have always tried to live fairly frugally. I also tried many way of forecasting budgets. Most of them broke down quite quickly. Life is too complicated to pur into nice neat categories.

My wife and I have found that what works best for us is to track what we spend each month right down to the last penny. We also keep track of what money comes in right down to the last penny. At the end of each month we sit down and subtract our costs from our income. We then know how much are monthly surplus or deficit is. So far we have always produced a surplus.

I will share with you the results of last month's tracking"

Gifts/Charities: $110.00 Education/Allowances: $80.00 (my son is not afraid of work. He makes lots of extra money shovelling driveways, looking after pets while owners away on holidays, etc. He saves about half of what he makes and happily spends the rest. Food: $320.00 Fun Foods $47.00 Medicine $15.00

The amount spent on monthly groceries is usually a little higher this time of year, The home grown veggies are running low. We usually buy some bulk meat from local farmer and freeze it.

Utilities: Water/Garbage $38.00. Electricity $34.00, Heating $46.00, Telephone, $43.00 Total: $161.00

Recreational Expenses: Alcohol $12.00, Video Rentals $14.00, Cable Vision $31.00, Rec Trips $18.00 Total: $75.00

House Costs: Repairs $28.00 to buy a used plumbing part which my wife and installed.

Clothing: Basic clothing $21.00, Cosmetic/Haircuts $17.00, Shoes/boots $14.00 My hiking boots were repaired by a friend. I had to buy some material for him.

Transportation: Gas $56.00, Maintenance $42.00 Total$98.00 My son either walks or bikes to school. On extremely cold days my wife or I or one of the neighbors will take him to school. My wife walks to work. I either walk or drive the car to work. We own a 1992 Nissan. We paid cash for it like all other cars we have bought. We keep cars on average about 10 years. We will probably buy another car in about 4-5 years for cash.

Annual Expenses like home and car insurance, house taxes, etc cost us $200 per month.

This then is what last month looked like for us:

Net family income= $5592.00 Total Cost For Month= $1186.00 Surplus income= $4406.00

Each month is of course a little different. Sometimes are expenses are less and sometime they are more. Sometimes the income is greater, sometimes less. Last year we found that July was our cheapest month as $876.00 and December was the most expensive at $1523.00.On average our cost are about $15 000.00 to $17 00.00 per year. The surplus is invested in the market every few months. We always keep enough money in the bank to live without pay cheques for at least six months. We want for nothing. We believe that our adherance to frugal ways has given us more choices than many people of similar income are given.

I hope you found these numbers and my account useful. I sincerely believe that most people could live far richer lives than they do given their present circumstances. But they must change their attitude towards money and must stop trying to make excuses for why they are making more money than they have ever made before and are still struggling to meet theri monthly expenses. Thanks for pushing me a bit.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 03-Apr-98-11:46 AM

Al,

You asked:

Question to Alberta Jon and to Howard: what do financial independence and early retirement have to do with happiness?

I think I have made my assumptions about happiness pretty clear: We are about as happy as we choose to be. Happiness is not dependent on financial independence or early retirement.

I would argue, however, that given the choice and we do have the choice between being financially dependent or financially independent that the latter is preferable to the former. And that the way to achive financial independence for most of us, at least, is through frugally managing our money.

Regarding early retirement: What is important to myself is not retiring early, but rather being able to retire or semi retire when and if I wish. It is managing my money in such a way that I get to make the choices. Not others.

But is it possible to be financially independent and unhappy? Absoulutely. Is it possible to take an early retirement and be unhappy? Of course, it is. Humans are capable of making themselves miserable in almost any circumstances imaginable. Someone once wrote: The world offers a banquet and most people starve.

So for me, God forbid I speak for Howard, the reason I am such a stong promoter of frugal values is that it gives ordinary Canadians the opportunity to sit down at the banquet and truly feast.

Thanks for your question. I hope I have answered it.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Michael
E-mail: mscoyne@wave.home.com
Date: 03-Apr-98-12:06 PM

Good afternoon Alberta-Jon!

The basic fallacy in your budget - it's cash based, not accrual based. Accordingly, it is significantly understated as a true percentage of your costs. But remember, your family's net income (after statutory deductions) is higher than the typical Canadian family's gross income (approx. $59K/annum).

1. The 6 month emergency/opportunity fund and the surplus between your income and prima facie expenses is superb and I commend you!

2. Your transportation costs exclude depreciation (i.e. in 5 years you will probably spend $10K(?) cash on another used vehicle). As the car ages , maintenance will become presumably higher. Depreciation and increased monthly maintenance are unaccounted for costs in your budget. Gas costs seem a little understated given the propensity of your family to engage in extensive recreational and "summer holiday" activities. In other words, a more reasonable view of your transportation costs would be an additional $200 per month. Also, bank on additional car insurance when your kid is ready to drive in 2 years. On balance, your monthly transportation costs would probably exceed $300/mth not $100 as you state.

3. Shelter costs are understated. Shingles don't have to be replaced every 15 to 20 years, mortar doesn't have to be re-pointed on occasion, paint doesn't have to be applied, appliances repaired or replaced, cleaning substances purchased, etc.etc.? Count on at the least an additional $150/mth for shelter costs.

Your transportation and shelter costs are understated by $4.2K per annum. Is it really necessary to analyze your food, clothing, recreational and other budgetary items to make the following case.

Your "frugal budget" is not atypical. I would hazard to guess that you are in line with the typical Stats Can average budget.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 03-Apr-98-01:36 PM

Michael,

Very interesting. If true that my budget is typical then Canada is truly more frugal than I ever would have imagined. We are a frugal nation. Not likely.

Sadly most people I know are in debt, I am not. Most people save very little, I save a lot. Most Canadians are worried about loosing their next pay cheque or making their next mortgage payment. I am not. Stats Canada seems to argue very persuasively that my budget, my savings and my lack of debt is anything but typical. I strongly suggest you check with stats Canada to see if I am mistaken. I know I'm not.

The money I spent in March is an actual account of what was spent. The money I spent last year was an actual account. The money I spent the year before was an actual account of what was spent. During those months and years I had to make the normal repairs, etc. They were made with as much frugality as possible and never came close to costing me what you guess it will cost me.

I personally think it is a mugs game to guess how much it will cost to run my car or house or whatever next year or the year after. What possible difference does it make to me if my car has been depreciated in some dealers book? Couldn't care less. Through maintenance and careful driving my cars always outlast my neighbors.

What if I have to look after a sick loved one, or what if the house burns down, or what if my son gets someone pregnant and they sue me and what...Who really knows? I look after today and let tomorrow take care of itself.

What I do know is that whatever it costs I will reduce that cost by shopping very carefully, by doing much of my own repairs, etc and even doing without if needed. And when I do make a purchase it will be with cash not borrowed money.

Your numbers reflect nothing that I have noticed over the last years. My gas cost for March was typical of the last 28 months of records. Our holiday driving you refer to is to our local mountains which are no more that 20 to 30 kms. away. I see little reason to think why any of my costs should rise as dramatically as you forecast. I believe they will continue within the range that I have tracked day by day and month by month and year by year. In fact we have noted that our costs are going down not up.

Remember what I showed you was not a budget forecast but a budget record or diary. It reflects actual not guessed at costs. Every cost you might care to raise can with frugal thinking be reduced or eliminated.

Thank you for your critical, but I think mistaken anlysis of my budget needs.

Thanks for your efforts,

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Michael
E-mail: mscoyne@wave.home.com
Date: 03-Apr-98-03:12 PM

Alberta-Jon, I am pleased to see that your missionary zeal dissipates in the face of empirical evidence. Keep it up. Query: was that your first posting without a reference to God or a Psalm?

The point is that a well fashioned reasoned budget includes capital costs/expenditures. As far as I am aware, capital costs (and their allowances) cannot be eliminated. In other words, they are recorded but unexpended balances. Reduced or massaged maybe, eliminated no! AAA, don't you employ accrual bookkeeping practices in your own business?

You admit to investing in equities which no doubt brings you to this Forum. Consider this - it is immoral (maybe?) and illegal (to a certainty) for an officer or director of a publically traded company to present (sign off) financial statements as you have purported to do with your frugal budget. No auditor worth his salt would accept such an engagement. Otherwise, it is a rallying cry heard round the globe. "Invest in Alberta-Jon for he is the lowest cost producer around (and has God on his side as a bonus)". Phooey!! Your numbers are fake. We'll just forget about the future month you expend $10K(?) on the next Nissan or the past month when you purchased your current car.

The securities regulators protect the investing public from the unscrupulous. Critical discourse is sufficient to protect me from the charlatans on the threads. Over and out.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Howard
Date: 03-Apr-98-03:25 PM

Alberta Jon, i used to be nice like you but after several years of attacks like what michael just pulled, well I just got mean.

Seriously, disregard rhe snide comments, means butkus. the only person whose needs you need to meet are your own.

Your presentation was not at 100% accounting, but even if it was, someone would challenge you.

I figure as long as their are cheques in the book, there is money in the bank.

out of interest, we are living on the same amount as you, with two sons at University. our accounting is easier as it is rentpaymentsonly, plus food/entertainment, $800 amonth for my sons.

don't even touch my portfolio, just want to keep compounding for a bit.

will draw $40k out at end of year otherwhise tax burden on future will be horrendous.

40% growth annually compounds very quickly.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Dave N
Date: 03-Apr-98-03:57 PM

Michael,

You seemed to have missed the point. Alberta-Jon did not say this was a budget forecast, but an actual list of expenses. He is not projecting that his expenses will always be this amount, ie. it is NOT an average. If a capital expendature is done, it is included in that months expenses. A 10,000 car purchase will no doubt put him in the red for 1 month, he knows this and it is anticipated. But paid cash his liquid assests will take a little dip and then resume their upward trend based on his savings.

By the way he is not running a corporation and does not have to put out a financial statement to anyone based on formal accounting methods. You need to cool down. This is a personal way of looking at and controlling ones expenses, and a very effective one I may add.

Dave N

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 03-Apr-98-05:59 PM

Michael,

What I presented to you was not a business or corporate budget. It is simply a record of what my wife and I spent last month. Were my expenses the same as month before? No Will my expenses be the same this month or next month? Probably not. But they will be well within my income. We will achieve this through practicing frugal skills learned over a long time.

Based on the data collection that we do each day of every month, we can reasonably project how much it costs us to live each month and year. The most important lesson my data collection teaches me is that I am living well within my means and that I can continue to do so.

Not every house hold problem needs money to solve it. Sometimes creative use of our talents and skills is more important than money. So, we have found at any rate.

We know that some day we will have to replace,for example, the fridge. The fridge we presently own was purchased by us at an auction for about $75.00 after many months of searching. We have had this fridge now for about four years. It was about three years old when we bought it. We have a number of books on home repairs. We have taught ourself how to do simple repairs and general maintenance of this appliance. It will we believe last many more years.

But how many? How would one determine the depreciation on such a purchase? We will no doubt be searching out auctions, friends, family and second hand stores for a fridge when the time comes. I have no idea how much this new fridge would cost us, but probably a lot less than a brand new one.

Probably standard household accounting would suggest that during period A we would have to spend B on a fridge C times over say D years. But our frugal shopping and our willingness to service those things we buy changes this equation.

Over and over again our experience is that we can get far better value for our money than many seem to think possible. And the more we learn and the more we try to seriously practice frugal skills, the more we save.

I explained how my wife and I tried many budgets. Most of them failed. We might not have anticipated that one or the other of us would loose a job. Or we never realized that one of us would receive a bonus that month. Or that the very washing machine we were looking for was now available for next to nothing and all we had to do was give it minor maintenance. Therby saving us hundreds of dollars in exchange for time well spent. So for us at least who are not accountants, budgets just didn't seem to work.

We knew we wanted to not only live within our mean; but we also wanted to know we were living within our means. The method of tracking each cent we spend--not something we developed ourself by the way--helps us know we are on the right track. It helps us know that we brought in x this month and y went out leaving us with a surplus of z. (Yucky looking formulas!!)

This surplus is invested. It now goes to work for us. Over the years this surplus has grown to quite a respectable size. It now generates an income of its own which I didn't show in my simple monthly budget outline. Before long the fridge or stove or second hand car all thoughfully and frugally purchased may be bought with cash generated from the interest on our invested surplus funds.

I have seen the misery that not living within your means causes people. I seriously try to live within my means. That is my major financial goal. This way of living has given me a sense of pride and independence. Naturally, I feel drawn to share this with others. I imagined that a forum like this one where people gather to talk about investing and getting enough money to invest would be a good place to share this point of view. Nothing has happened to change my mind about this issue.

You make some comments about me making reference to God or the Psalms. I think if you look back through this thread you will see that for the most part I am replying to someone else's comments about God or church or the bible. I did not come to this forum to share my belief in God, but as mentioned before to talk about frugality and investing. If, however, someone chooses to talk about God, I am always willing to share my point of view. I am a Christian and I make no apologies for this belief.

I also sense in your posting a bitter or angry tone. I'm not too sure why this should be so. All I'm doing, I think is promoting debate on yet another path to accumulating wealth and achieving financial independence. Obviously, I think it is a sound path for many Canadians. I suppose it is also equally obvious that I think this is one of the best ways to achieve our financial goals. But so what? This doesn't make me a subversive or a threat to you or the things you believe in.

Enough said, Michael. I still welcome your contribution to this debate.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 03-Apr-98-06:37 PM

Howard,

If I didn't know better I would swear you said something nice to me and about me. Thank you. You mention renting. I often wondered whether it is better to rent than own from a frugal point of view. It seems every second expert has a different opinion on the matter. Care to comment?

I also want to keep my portfolio compounding. But 40% is certainly only a distant dream. Once or twice over the years I did that well and even better. Mostly though I post more modest gains.

Thanks. Have a good weekend.

Dave N

Thank you too for the words of support and helping restate the argument.

Mason,

I would love to know what those five simple ideas are you write about. I hope you tell us.

To Everyone Who Contributed,

I hope this debate continues. Some really good ideas have emerged this week. Have a good weekend.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:wag
Date: 03-Apr-98-06:47 PM

how could that be the reel howerd.the reel howerd cant put spaces between his sentences.besides the reel howerd cant be nice.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Al
Date: 03-Apr-98-08:35 PM

Thanks for a great thread Alberta Jon. I too enjoy living modestly and practise the principles you mention. But I don't see it as a means to achieve financial independence. In fact, the real test will come when I lose my independence and become totally dependent. Also, your practise of living frugal in order to feast makes me wonder . . .do you have to practise fasting in order to enjoy a good meal? Obviously, Howard is right to point out that financial independence is better than poverty. But realistically, are these the only options most Canadians face? For the past 5 years I have lived in the largest city in the world, Mexico City. The extremes here between those who have and those who don't are far more extreme than in Canada. Did you see the movie Titanic? Were the rich on the upper decks enjoying themselves more than the poor on the lower decks? Why is it that while we all curse poverty, overall a poor Mexican finds more joy in life than most Canadians? I read a gallup pol that says that the majority of Canadians believe they would be happier if they earned more. Most of us know that's not true, but we all fall for it just the same. We think in terms of independence v.s dependence, and dismiss the possibility that interdependence has anything to offer. Meanwhile, too many financially independent and early retirement types bask in personal smugness. I meet them on the beach down here in Mexico. They bragg about some financial technique they conjured, are oblivious to how they were blessed, and forget to say thanks to an entire support crew that sacrificed for them. You dont want to forgo anything to join that club!

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Howard
Date: 04-Apr-98-09:42 AM

Alberta Jon, we rent because the children are away at school and to remain in downtown toronto, it is more cost effective to rent than to own.

i get one bill a month and if something needs fixing I call my landlord, the United church of Canada.

I am renting the Minister's Manse, which is a great place ina great location.

My return is Dumb Luck, i held on to my shares of Pfizer because my cost is about 415 US and i don't want to give all my gains to the Government.

Plus, I cannot see any other company with which I have the same confidance.

yeah, i was nice to you, blame it on the cheap wine.. For the record, my eldest son has been accepted to teach at the University of Beijing, a Humanitarian he takes after his Mother's side of the Family.. thank goodness for my younger son who still believes that No means buy her another beer.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:phred
Date: 04-Apr-98-11:38 AM

This has worked for me for over 90 years.

Luk 12:27: Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

Mat 6:28: And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin.

Let it work for you.

phred

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 04-Apr-98-11:49 AM

May I also suggest

Mat 6:26: Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

Thank you for your contribution.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Mason
Date: 04-Apr-98-02:54 PM

Sorry for my last posting that I accidently delivered 3 times--my computer (or me) has these occassional glitches.

Alberta Jon,

Thanks for sharing the details of your budget. It was very interesting--you seem to have frugality and common sense down pat.

You asked for my 5 ideas about how to achieve financial indepedence early. They're actually so simple and so widely-known I'd be embarrased to claim them as my own, but all I know is that they worked for us. So, in a nutshell:

1. BUY USED FOR CERTAIN ITEMS-- My wife and I learned long ago that a used hammer works as good as a new one. Likewise with kids' clothes, toys, lawnmowers, books, etc. The stuff you get at garage sales, auctions, etc. won't look cheap if you're careful--only you will know what it cost. Come into our home and you'd never guess that much of what you see was bought used.

2. NEVER BUY A NEW CAR-- We always buy 2-5 year old vehicles, and pay cash. There is no worse investment than a new car. We usually own two vehicles, and keep them a long time. Buy privately, not off a lot, and look for a deal. I like three year-old Toyotas or Hondas.

3. DON'T BUY ON CREDIT-- Nothing will sink you faster than overdue credit card payments. If you can't afford it, wait, or get something else you can. The only thing you should ever buy on time is your house. Pay it down as fast as possible. We shrunk our amortization from 25 to 10 years, and paid it off in our mid-thirties. (about $165,000)

4. INVEST IN 2 GOOD MUTUAL FUNDS--Only check them once a year, and quit worrying.

5. SAVE 10-25% EVERY MONTH--If you're unable to do that, you havn't followed steps 1 to 4.

That's it-- no surprises! It's all in "The Wealthy Barber" and many other books. Following this plan has allowed my wife and I to approach financial independence in the next few years--we're in our mid- forties. We make $60,000 a year and are raising 3 kids. And we live like kings!

One difference between you and I, Alberta Jon--unlike you, I have absolutely no idea what our monthly expenditures are, nor have I ever known.(I mean, not even a clue!) Neither does my wife. We have found that following these simple 5 steps, there's simply no need to budget, or even think about it. There's always lots of money around, and we always have a surplus.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Sideliner
E-mail: judgepc2@netcom.ca
Date: 04-Apr-98-03:32 PM

I am curious, and please don't take this question the wrong way. How do you find the time to poke around at yard/garage sales and consider this ecconomical? I work 50 hrs a week, spend 12 hrs a week in transit, and raise 2 kids. Usually when I need something I can't wait ie. the lawn mower dies. I am an avid do it yourselfer, but most projects take months. I earn $75,000.00 yr without bonus, my mortgage is 245wk and will be paid off in 6 yrs. I am always working, cooking, cleaning, helping with homework etc.. How do you manage your time?

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Sideliner
E-mail: judgepc2@netcom.ca
Date: 04-Apr-98-03:46 PM

While were on this topic, access to this service isn't cheap either. Unlimited access $29.95 mth + computer + bell call answer. I use the internet for news, magazines, banking, tv guide kids homework/projects/reference etc. etc. but it's still a cost of at least $420.00 yr from my net income!

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Matador
Date: 05-Apr-98-12:23 PM

This is very interesting discussion.

I'm 46 and admit that I spend more than the minimum suggested.

Don't make the mistake of looking back and stating what this & that costs, then projecting future growth of your portfolio referenced to the past 5 years investment returns.

For instance, if you got to this point with 80% equities those returns can't be maintained. You must look at where you are in the economic cycle. If you are financially independent with a portfolio structured with 80% laddered strip bonds you are financially secure because reinvestment will be done at the same or higher interest rates. Many people retired with a portfolio of laddered strip bonds when interest rates were high, they lived it up and had to reinvest at much lower rates which cut their income in half. Within a five year period their financial management made them poor.

I have always saved and I am reaching the point where I could retire. For me 500 K is sufficient and I would take a few consulting jobs to keep life interesting.

Two years ago I took a consulting contract, we lived off my wifes income and I saved more in two years than I did in the previous 10. Its possible to work 6 months per year and make 50% more than you did when you had a steady job.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Frugal Student
Date: 05-Apr-98-01:11 PM

Michael and company,

What are you having trouble understanding? Alberta-Jon's financial picture seems perfectly clear to me. The picture that emerges is not one of typical stats can canadian as you suggest or a charlatan. Let me review the record for you:

1. He lives without debt. 2. He lives within his means. 3. He knows how much money he spends each day, month and year. 4. He knows how much money he makes each day, month and year. 5. He knows these things because he records what what he makes and spends each day, month and year. 6. He has an enviable savings to income ratio. 7. He has a substantial rainy day fund. 8. He could obviously live on far less than presently making. 9. He knows how much surplus money is left at the end of each month. 10 He invests this surplus. 11 He could easily buy from his monthly surplus

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Sideliner
E-mail: judgepc2@netcom.ca
Date: 05-Apr-98-01:16 PM

Matador.

How did you come up with the figure 500K?

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Frugal Student
Date: 05-Apr-98-01:18 PM

I'm going to repost this. Hit the wrong button by mistake.

Michael and company,

What are you having trouble understanding? Alberta-Jon's financial picture seems perfectly clear to me. The picture that emerges is not one of typical stats can canadian as you suggest or a charlatan. Let me review the record for you:

1. He lives without debt. 2. He lives within his means. 3. He knows how much money he spends each day, month and year. 4. He knows how much money he makes each day, month and year. 5. He knows these things because he records what what he makes and spends each day, month and year. 6. He has an enviable savings to income ratio. 7. He has a substantial rainy day fund. 8. He could obviously live on far less than presently making. 9. He knows how much surplus money is left at the end of each month. 10 He invests this surplus. 11 He could easily buy from his monthly surplus any household item that needed replacing. 12. He could if needed use the interest from his surplus money to buy bigger capital items. 13. He is a wise and frugal shopper. 14. He has taught himself how to maintain and repair the things he has bought. 15. He will soon gain financial independence. 16. He is a Christian and a nice man.

You call this man a charlatan? I hope you are not a financial advisor. What you don't know about money is a: LOT!

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Interested Follower
Date: 05-Apr-98-01:47 PM

Alberta-Jon

Don't usually respond to these threads. But I felt I must say how much I admire what you are trying to do with your financial life.

The goal of any good budget is to give one an idea of where they have been financially speaking, how much did it cost to get there and what might it cost in the future based on the past. It is in fact a financial game plan: In plain English it is an attempt to guess how much money it will cost you to live in the near future and whether you have the money to meet this future.

It helps answer questions like can I afford both a new car and a holiday or will I have to sacrifice one or even both. Will I have enough money to fix the leaky roof or even big questions like do I have enough to retire.

Alberta-Jon your budget is the way you have personally chosen to answer these kinds of questions. Your way of budgeting/tracking wouldn't be my choice. But unlike Michael, I can see that the budget plan you have designed or borrowed works for you.

Alberta-Jon there is no such thing as the one best way to keep track of our expenses and income. If there was, one wouldn't see hundreds of new books on how to plan a budget coming out each year. So please don't be persuaded by Michael's bombastic thunderings about how one must keep a budget.

Finally, you are to be congratulated on the calm way you handled some extremely unfair commentary. I know damn well I wouldn't have reacted as calmly. Thanks for a superb thread.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Scrooge
Date: 05-Apr-98-02:26 PM

Albeta-Jon

Ignore the nay sayers. Frugal people are going to win the day. Michael and other defenders of spend, spend spend, will soon be swept into the trash can of history. They belong to the past. Frugality is where its at. Frugality rules, man. Enjoy.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Matador
Date: 05-Apr-98-02:35 PM

Sideliner, I copied gummy's formulas and built my own spreadsheet.

I made a table for the factor which combines different interest and inflation rates. Ironiically I noticed that the calculation gets simple if you assume the difference between inflation and your rate of return is 3.5% -$4.0 I also had an article in my files that suggested the same so I wasn't breaking new ground, just confirming what was previously stated.

493K gives me 25K for 30 Yrs, 593K would give me 30K per year. Once you get in control a move to a laddered portfolio of strip bonds works because the above differetial will always be there.

Why not retire, with the proposed changes any additional money saved beyond what is required will be taxed at 70%. I'm not going to hibernate I will work a few months a year and accumulate excess wealth in a corporate account.(20% tax)

The above strategy may not suit anyone except little ole me.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Sideliner
E-mail: judgepc2@netcom.ca
Date: 05-Apr-98-04:20 PM

Matador

Thank's for the reply. Yes I too have explored the possibility of "semi retirement." I am 41 and plan to work until 55, then semi retire myself. With an average 3% inflation rate I figure I'll need closer to 800k by then (2016)

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Michael
E-mail: mscoyne@wave.home.com
Date: 05-Apr-98-05:16 PM

Alberta Jon,

You have found many converts from far and wide. Congratulations. My focus is item 15 in your first posting on this thread. The other 19 items are well known and articulated "truisms". Perhaps you and the flock should re-evaluate the thread.

Reality is that financial independence (retirement dreams) is solely a function of one's balance sheet (increase in monthly net worth) not one's income statement (monthly surplus).

Ain't no guarantee that you're going to make a G note next month. Ain't no guarantee that frugal student $30K in debt ain't going to declare bankruptcy Monday. Ain't no guarantee that a senior on GIS ain't going to the food bank for a tuna tin on Tuesday. Ain't no guarantee that a spouse loses employment and the leveraged family home goes under power of sale on Wenesday. What does frugality have to with it! Ain't no income guarantees. Period. Ain't no financial independence based on "earned" or "allotted" income. The foregoing examples of distress (because you ain't gonna pay no GST on your next used fridge are ya preacher man) are primarily a function of the income statement.

The moral - a solid well diversified balance sheet - ain't got no worries.

Frugality (and the scriptures?) on the income side helps but it ain't no guarantee if you got no assets. Duh?

Now let us consider the dei gratia from the pulpit when challenged on the premise: To wit - Tim is "loosing big time at the game of life", Fred is a "poor excuse for a businessman", Michael has a "bitter or angry tone". I won't dignify response to the rote repetitive reiterations of your flock. Hmmm. Argumentum ad hominem.

Matador touched on it - financial independence is attained and maintained by maximizing the real after-tax cash flow from the effective utilization of assets for a given level of consumption.

I ain't no economist but I would hazard to guess that the higher the net worth, the higher the consumption curve. Period. Hmmm.

The preacher and the flock ain't kneeling and praying ("I live like a King") at the wailing wall. They are too busy standing and SCREAMING ("I am a King") at the capitalist trough. Argumentum e silencio (on this thread).

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 06-Apr-98-10:22 AM

To All,

I can see this thread was very busy over the weekend. I also note that someone for reasons of their own used my name. I made no postings on April 4th. I would like to participate in further debate now, but have too much work to do at present. Hopefully, by this evening.

Michael,

Calm down. Try to enjoy life. I think all this frugality talk has hit a raw nerve with you. I wonder why? What is an asset to you? Is it a house? property? stocks? bonds? old car? ability to work? Please explain. But try to explain rationally and cooly. Why do you suppose that the higher the income, the higher the consumption? Is this a rule of economics? Or does it tell us how you live your life? "Increase in monthly net worth vs. monthly surplus" Is there a real difference between these two or are getting into semantics on this one? Your third paragraph tends to ramble and I'm not really sure what your point is. Are you arguing that life is full of surprises? Then I certainly have no argument with that notion. If that is the case then I do belive that frugality does help smooth our life's ups and downs. If this is not your argument, then again calm down and try to make your point less emotionally, then maybe others will better understand your point. You then leap to a "solid well diversified balance sheet." I have no argument with that assumption. I do have a solid well diversified balance sheet that includes adherance to frugal values. Do you? You seem to find offence with some of my phrases. I think though if you look at carefully in the context of what I wrote that I wasn't being particularly harsh. But if it was read that way by you and others then let me quickly apologize. In reading the rest of your arguments, I see an underlying anti church, anti-clerical tone to posting do you suppose that by doing this you somehow hurt me or make me angry? Are you attempting to dismiss my adherance to frugality by making arguments against Christianity and the church? If so I think it is a rather poorly thought out strategy. If you care to clarify any of the above, I for one would be most grateful. Try to have a good day.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Frugal Student
Date: 06-Apr-98-11:08 AM

Michael,

You write that much of what Alberta-Jon wrote in his first posting are truism. Really? How nice of you to share with us your obvious superior knowledge. If truisms do you believe they are widely acted upon? If acted upon would this bring happiness to the masses?

What you write, your economic techno-babble what category of logic do they fall into? Truisms? Cliches? Economic bull....?

You want to destroy the arguments in favour of frugality. But you fail. You babble on about all sorts of things that make little or no sense.

Come on Michael. Help us all understand your problem with living frugally. What don't you understand? Why are you so worried about what you think frugality argues for? Does it make you question your own values? Are you afraid that the frugality movement which is starting to sweep North America threatens the conumer based economy?

Personally, I don't really care what you think. It wouldn't change my mind. But it might be fun to see why those who think like you still think like you.

Unlike, Alberta-Jon I don't care if you have a good or bad day.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Howard
Date: 06-Apr-98-11:56 AM

Frugality is a completely meaningless standard to live by, because it's definition is totally up to the individual.

I buy a $5 bottle of wine instead of a 430 Margeaux.

Am i frugal?? Some people would say i should not buy any wine, just the basics of food, preferably in dented cans.. frugality and Christianity have nothing to do with each other, except if you are a begging monk, then you reject all material goods. Alberta J, I do not know the rationale behind using another person's name., i get the same problem on occasion?

Frugalityis a moving standard, the higher your asset value, the higher the base line fro your own individual sense of economic living becomes.

got to go, see there is another fool with too much time on his hands who is slagging me.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Frugal Student
Date: 06-Apr-98-12:44 PM

Howard,

Good point. Frugality is not an absolute. My undestanding of it would lead me to argue that living frugally is living in such a way that you recognize when you have enough. This sense of enoughness might differ from person to person. But the measure must be found in each of us. If we start looking to how much our neighbor seems to have and try to make this our mark of enoughness or contentment we will probably never have enough. Since as soon as you get to where your neighbor was today he has moved on.

Frugality then is knowing how much you or me need to live well. It is realizing that ones net happiness will not go up if one goes beyond this level of enoughness.

It should not be about keeping up with the Jones. I don't know if this helps much. Hope so.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Peter
Date: 06-Apr-98-01:26 PM

Howard

Frugality means living within your means. Frugality means using and enjoying and getting the most out of what you spend your money on.

Frugality also means trying to live within the means set by the finite resources of the planet earth.

Frugality means a rejection in part of the primary role assigned modern American: That is to be consumers so that we can all keep the economy steam rolling along.

I wonder how other people define frugality.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Gilles
Date: 06-Apr-98-02:43 PM

I have been quietly lurking on this thread and have found that the concept of frugality intriguing (and totally foreign to me - although my finances are well under control).

Is seems to me that to be truly frugal, it must become a hobby of sorts since it is very time comsuming... going to auctions, garage sales etc.

I would much prefer spending my time off with my wife and daughter doing things we enjoy rather than spending endless hours shopping, gardening and canning food.

I believe that being truly frugal is a lifestyle choice and I believe only a small percantage of people are willing to make that choice.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Frugal Student
Date: 06-Apr-98-04:12 PM

Gilles'

Not everyone who is into frugal movement is into canning, gagage sales, etc.

Although many do find doing these things together with their family a wonderful way to spend an afternoon. Lifestyle choice, like you point out.

Do you live within your means? Or do you live beyond your means? If the former you are well on your way to being frugal. If the latter you are probably right frugality is a foreign concept to you.

You might be right about only a small percentage of people adopting frugality as a lifestyle. It would certainly seem so by the number of Canadians who are in debt up the ying yang.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 06-Apr-98-07:12 PM

Al,

Al, no doubt about it, we are all much more interdependent than we care to admit. I think I have made it clear in other postings that being financially independent, for me, at least, does not mean basking away on some distant beach. It means being able to make choice. The more I am free to make choices, without fear of crippling financial loss, the closer I am to reaching financial independence. I know that we in this century and in this part of the planet are very fortunate. We all of us are, in effect, recipients of a kind of global welfare.

phred,

The words speak for themselves. They need no comment from me.

Mason,

Bravo! I don't how anyone could possibly fault your systematic frugality. It is simple and effective. They are the kinds of thing anyone could and probably should practice. Certainly anyone who is making a decent wage and is struggling to make ends meet should seriously consider following your lead. If they did, they would soon find themself living like kings instead of high paid paupers.

Sideliner,

You raise some interesting questions. How do I, how does anyone find the time to do what we want? I believe that how we spend our time like how we spend our money is a matter of choice. I wonder, for example, whether you couldn't shave an hour or two off your work schedule each week thereby giving you more time? Might you not live closer to work or get a job that is closer to work? Do all the chores that you claim to do have to be done each day? Can't some of these chores be delegated to the wife/husband and two children?

What would happen if some of the chores didn't get finished? Have you examined how much time is spent looking after useless stuff? Have you considered decluttering and simplifying your life? How much time do you spend watching tv? How much time do you spend...?

Choices. We all choose to use our time in different ways. There is no right or wrong way to use time. But I think we should be conscious of our decisions and know that by choosing one option we may have ruled out another option. I wonder if you have considered that by failing to find the time to fix the broken lawn mower, you have agreed to give many hours of your paid employment to buy a new one?

Your circumstances are different from mine. I have arranged my life so I get more time of my own. I delibertly leave time off between contracts. This costs me money, but I live frugally in part so I can afford to buy the luxury of more time for myself. I often can walk to work. I never spend two hours each day commuting. I feel nothing but sympathy for people who have to spend hours in traffic each day getting to and from work. I did it once upon a time and never will do it again.

In addition to saving money by trying to maintain and repair things we own, I genuinely enjoy doing it. I enjoy spending a few hours at an auction or looking around garage sales. I choose to make time to do these things. Other things, perhaps, don't get done. So what?

It may be a truism: But it still worth thinking about that just as no one can have it all; no one can do it all. So once again the choice is ours.

Obviously, I don't know the circumstances of your life. But if you don't have enough time to do things like puttering and fixing things which you claim to like then you should, in my opinion, radically change some things. I fully agree with Henry David Thoreau who wrote: "There is no more fatal blunderer than he who consumes the greater part of his life getting his living."

PS I use internet connections by permission from some local employers.

Matador,

The last paragraph of your posting demonstrates what many of us have been trying to say that we all can live and live well on a lot less money than we think. Once realized then many of us opt for having more time and saying to hell with getting more money.

The rest of your posting: I'm not sure that I have really found the answer to what is the best way to grow my portfolio and what is the best way to withdraw money from it when time comes. But I don't plan on worrying too much about it. I know I wil always have enough to get by.

To All Other Contributors: Pro and con,

Your comments are appreciated. I hope both the contributors and the silent observers have profited from this ongoing debate. I don't think there are any white or black hats on either side of this debate. Just honest people trying to figure out how to best use our finite life energy. I don't know if this debate has any further to go or not. Time will tell.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Sideliner
E-mail: judgepc2@netcom.ca
Date: 07-Apr-98-04:35 AM

Good response Alberta-Jon. Can't honestly say I haven't scrutinized my personal choices much the same way that you have. (you were much kinder) I have resolved myself to the rat-race for roughly two more years (my youngest will then be fourteen and a little more independant) Then I to hope to begin a more frugal lifestyle. Appreciate the time that you took to reply.

Sideliner

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Mason
Date: 07-Apr-98-08:00 PM

Sideliner,

You asked how we get time to shop second hand rather than new. Good question--there's no doubt that it's quicker to run down to Walmart everytime you need something rather than look in the classifieds. But it's all a question of priorities--if you don't want to be a working stiff at age 60, in my mind, it's emminently worth the extra time.

The other factor is that as time moves along, you don't need to shop used as much. After 15 or 20 years of doing that, you should have piled so much up in savings that you can afford to buy a lot more new. At least, that's been our experience.

Notice that my 5 point plan is basically geared to cutting expenditures. The simple truth that so few seem to grasp is that your yearly salary and even your investments--mutual funds,etc-- have little to do with your ability to retire early.(That's why I really don't much care what kind of mutual fund I've got, because pretty well any one will do if you're a frugal spender) It is how you SPEND, not what you EARN, that will determine how quickly you achieve financial independence.

To give one example, suppose you buy a new Toyota for $25,000, and I buy the same vehicle 4 years later for $15,000. We've both got essentially the same car, (I'll happily take the extra minor repairs it might cost me, and the scruffier looking carpet) but I've saved $10,000 off the top.

Remember that this $10,000 is after- tax dollars, so you likely earned nearly $20,000 in gross income more than I did to pay for the same car. Now let's say you financed your purchase over, say, 3 years, and spent a modest $2,000 extra in interest, which is $4,000 before taxes.

You've now paid $12,000 more for the same vehicle, and if we both were to keep it 10 years, the resale value of your ten year old car, and my 14 year old car, would be virtually the same.

Then let's say that I took the extra $12,000 I saved on the car and invested it in a modest mutual fund with a 10% return. After 10 years, I have the same beat up car as you, but I've got near $25,000 in savings. Mutiply this by, say, 10 car purchases in your working life, and I've got an extra $250,000 in the bank and am retired, while you're wondering why you still need to work.

New cars are for fools and status seekers.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Howard
Date: 07-Apr-98-09:10 PM

see my thread, Johnny got a new car, for which I took a lot of abuse.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 08-Apr-98-11:00 AM

Gilles

fru'-gal, a. [OFr. frugal, from L. frugalis, economical, temperate] 1. economical; not spending freely or unnecessarily; saving; sparing; not profuse or lavish. - Webster's Dictionary

If true a non frugal person would be uneconomical, spends freely, unnecessarily, profusely and lavishly. I doubt if one thinks about it that frugality is such a foreign notion.

Mason,

Bylo lead me to articles in Early Retirement. One of them looked at car purchases. It has been estimated that if we only bought a new car every ten years instead of the average three years that we would save over $300 000.00 in a working lifetime or enough money to retire at least five years earlier than otherwise.

I agree 100% the key is not earning more money either by employment or interest but rather by seriously reducing our spending.

To Anyone,

I got a book from the library called The Fundline Advisor written by Richard Croft and Eric Kirzner. Does anyone have any thoughts on this book. Is it a worthwhile read. Reliable?

Howard,

I look forward to reading this thread. Find it very hard to believe that anyone would take issue with anything you say. Just kidding. But not about reading the thread you indicate.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Gilles
Date: 08-Apr-98-11:25 AM

Alberta Jon,

I'll bet that many of us on this forum live within their means, save for their retirement, and have little or no debt. I bet they don't consider themselves as frugal.

Frugal for me means that I would have to go out of my way to save some money at the expense of time lost doing the things I enjoy.

If the 'frugal activities' are what you enjoy then good for you. I doubt that many on this forum enjoy the same activities you do. Like I said, it's a lifestyle choice more than anything else.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 08-Apr-98-01:04 PM

Gilles,

I quote from you:

I'll bet that many of us on this forum live within their means, save for their retirement, and have little or no debt. I bet they don't consider themselves as frugal.

Several thoughts: One if true then the folks found in this forum belong to an enlightened minority of Canadians, if what I continue to read, listen and watch is anything to go by. Two, whether they consider themself frugal or not makes little difference. If they walk like a duck and quack like a duck then they are a duck whether they choose to call themself something else or not.

I further quote:

Frugal for me means that I would have to go out of my way to save some money at the expense of time lost doing the things I enjoy.

Like working harder and longer to get the same thing a frugal person got for a quarter the price you got it for. It might seem like a good trade off to you but not to most frugal folks. In fact most frugal folks would think you are paying far too high a price simply to avoid being a careful shopper and consumer.

And a final quote:

If the 'frugal activities' are what you enjoy then good for you. I doubt that many on this forum enjoy the same activities you do. Like I said, it's a lifestyle choice more than anything else.

I am a little confused. You stated earlier that most people found here like not being in debt, live within their means and put money away towards financial independence. If so we seem to have much in common.

We like to shop carefully. Don't you? We like to get good value for our money. Don't you? We like to arrange our life so we get more time with our family. Don't you? We like to meet all our needs and a few of our wants as inexpensively as possible. Don't you? We enjoy being as independent of employment income as possible. Don't you?

What is your lifestyle choice? Spend foolishly? Forget about getting good value? Spend more time with employers or with your business rather than your family? Pay more than you have to in order to meet your needs? Put no limits on your wants and therefore always feel hard done by? Would you rather spend more time working for a living (dying?) rather than pursuing more meaningful pursuits?

But you are right. You can like others make a lifestyle choice and opt to be not frugal. Good luck.

Gilles'

I wrote the above about an hour ago. I have reread it. It sounds in places a little harsh. This really is not my intention. I'm not sure sometimes how to write with some force about those things I feel strongly about and not in the process forget I'm speaking to a fellow human being. To someone who deserves respect. So please understand that I disagree with your position, but I make or do not wish to make any attack on you as a person. Ok?

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Howard
Date: 08-Apr-98-01:36 PM

Damn it Alberta Jon Boy, would you quit apologizing every time you post something.. This Ah Shucks, Jolly Gee attitude can get down right annoying.

Richy Cunningham, that's who you are.. happy Days is alive and well North of Brookes Alberta.

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Gilles
Date: 08-Apr-98-01:41 PM

Alberta-Jon,

You? Harsh? Yeah Right! After the likes of Howard, discussing with you is like a breath of fresh air.

Back to the definition of frugality. I guess I could be considered frugal... spending within my means, saving for retirement and daughter's education, only debt is my mortgage which will be paid for in a few years, always paid cash for our car and kept it until it's ready for the junk yard (my wife managed to give an early retirement to our previous car :) ).

But if you looked at my cash flow (especially the outflow) you sure wouldn't think I was frugal. The only luxuries we have are restaurant outings once a week, and our golf membership (although while I'm playing golf, I'm not spending money elsewhere).

Where I draw the line is shopping for a lower price, gardening, making my own beer and wine... stuff like that. I find shopping to be terribly unproductive and if I was given the choice to go shopping for four hours and going to work for four hours I would choose to work because I enjoy it a lot more (or maybe I just hate shopping so mmuch). Clearly when it comes to big ticket items, I will shop around because the time spent is worth the trouble. You will never see me at a garage sale or at an auction - the trouble with buying used is that it's so difficult in getting exactly what you want.

I will also pay for painting the house, lawn care, snow removal, and house cleaning.

Life is too short.

You could argue that I could work four days a week and do this work myself and come out even but the reality is that 1) I really hate to do this work and 2) there are not many businesses that will accept a four day work week.

Anyway, I guess frugality comes in degrees. Out of 10 I'm probably a 6 and you are probably a 9 (FI: the frugality index :) ).

P.S. I really had a good laugh about the Quack like a duck line... I heard it before but it has never applied to me. LOL

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Bylo
Date: 08-Apr-98-01:52 PM

This sucker's taking far too long to load. It's grown to nearly 200K in size.

So, it's time for More Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?

Subject: RE: Financial Independence: Retirement Dreams?
From:Alberta-Jon
Date: 08-Apr-98-01:53 PM

Howard,

Sorry! Oops, I didn't mean that, I'm sorry. No, more apologies you eastern, capitalist, lackey.Sorry, Howard.

Seriously,

I think manners and respect are important even in this forum where we can all too easily hide behind our anonymity.

Enjoy your day in the big city.